i mean, the hypocrisy certainly doesn't.
why would it?
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I didnt say you were harassing someone, i said you were protecting the means by which to harass people.
They’re related. Often, the ability to limit your audience is about making it non trivial for harassers to access your content rather than impossible. fuck you
go make a community? you've already been accusing me of being a power hungry mod, and now you're telling me to go make a community to mod?i dont want to be a mod, being a mod sounds miserable, like ive repeatedly said.and lemmy doesn't have enough users to be splitting up communities anyways. its built to do it, but practically you can't, despite it being "encouraged"
LOL at standing up an instance as being a reasonable solution to anything for a normal user or small community.
I didn't disregard your point, but i may have missed it.afaict your point was "lemmy doesn't work that way, so either put up with it, fix it, or go elsewhere"
I dont think thats a very reasonable stance to take, if that was your stance. I strongly don't believe in the motto criticism without a suggestion is destructive criticism. I believe there is a ton of value in getting criticism from people who don't understand what a fix would look like, or only knowing superficially what it'd look like.
right now we're engaging in a discussion about what change, if any, should even happen. I want to come to a consensus so that those volunteer devs aren't wasting their time working on things that make peoples' lives worse.
I'm trying to say "hey, what OP wants isn't an unreasonable thing for a person using a social network to want" and try to explain why i think its reasonable for them to want.
that is fair. I shouldn't be putting words in their mouth. I don't think I was. I think i was being pretty clear that this is my current opinion after talking to ada, where I used to have similar beliefs to the majority here (public is public, dont expect privacy) and they convinced me that thats not a reasonable position to take if you value the safety of persecuted minorities (although I have to admit idk if that was what they were hoping I'd take away from that conversation).
Presumably they can do a much better job of explaining the concerns than I can. I have no idea how/if their views have changed since then, or how they apply specifically to blocking.
but my opinion, after talking with them, is that its not a reasonable position to take that public is public, so there should be no expectation of privacy. To me the idea that blocking people only hides their content from you is an extension of that. this comment will maybe give you a better impression of what I got out of that conversation
second time I've shared this with you (or at least a reply in the same thread). I dont think that the conversation is in one linear thread, but i dont remember since it was 2 years ago.
since it is clear you want to paint me in a way that you can disregard my statements
kind of like the things you've been saying to both me _and other people in this thread (?!?!?) that I'm a powerhungry mod wannabe? is that not painting me in a way so that you (and others?!?!) can disregard my statements? if not, then why do you keep bringing it up? 2 wrongs don't make a right, but at least I'm trying to convey the concerns that I learned about to the best of my ability. as best I can tell, you don't even seem to want to admit that there is any issue with the current way things are.because fundamentally all I'm trying to do is say that the things that OP wans are reasonable for a person to want when engaging with a social network, and I'm using this previous conversation I had as groundwork with which to explain that. Which I'm evidently doing poorly.
it is my impression that they are \
didn't lemm.ee shut down just this year, because they were overwhelmed, not just to the technical demands of running an instance, but because of all the social bullshit?
and when are they going to have time to keep up-to-date on all the current dogwhistles?
how is a mod going to be able to effectively judge if a harassment report is true if the harassment depends on if the harasser is spreading lies about the reporter?
and regardless of if my impression is accurate or not, that is my impression. what in the name of the everloving baby jesus would make you think thats something that I would want to deal with?im not even that active on lemmy. just in bursts like today where someone says something that gets me riled up.
whats not harassment?
I think that making blocklists public is the lesser evil
what I'm saying mostly is that what OP is asking for isn't unreasonable. people are giving them shit for it, and thats not fair. there are problems with the current solution.
I know that the reddit-style blocking also has problems. It'd be great if there was a better solution. but simply wanting to prevent a harasser from harassing you in your metaphorical front yard without appealing to the powers that be, or simply shutting your ears and eyes, seems like a pretty reasonable thing to want regardless of technical complication.
except the victim doesn't have the choice to endure it or isolate themselves, they only have the choice to blind themselves. The attacker still gets to spread lies and rumours in the victim's very own comment section - the harassment still continues even if the victim cannot see it.
not every community is that of online strangers, some people actually know eachother IRL, or in some capacity outside of lemmy.
thats exactly the take i used to have, until it was explained to me how harmful that is to persecuted minorities and drives them off the platform.
I evidently cannot do a good job of explaining why that would be the case and (apparently) why thats even a problem, but I believe it is.
I'm generally trying to go off of a conversation I had with someone 2 years ago in lemmy. I was generally of the opposite opinion to my current stance, and they explained how the current "everything is public, dont even try to hide it from people" stance is problematic to persecuted minorities. It was 2 years ago so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details - I had to go look it up because someone didnt believe that the conversation even existed, but i didnt re-read the whole comment section.
their point was that, while total privacy in a federated service is likely impossible, you want to make it non-trivial for harassers to do harassment.
reporting is absolutely more appropriate than blocking, but blocking has a few advantages:
- its immediate, you dont need to wait for mods/admin.
- you don't need to prove to an admin that something that the harasser said about you is actually a lie.
- mods/admins don't need to be up-to-date on all the current dogwhistles
- it doesn't need to actually affect the harasser beyond you. they dont need to get banned from the whole community or instance, unless the community or instance feels like they should be. its lower impact. This is important for lemmy communities that represent real communities, like classes or teams or neighborhoods.
sorry i was getting it mixed up, i've had a very similar conversations a few times and that rebuttal came up multiple times.
mods and admins are overworked, and they can't always be expected to keep up to date with dogwhistles along with everything else they have to manage. besides, harassment doesn't always appear to break ToS - starting rumours and spreading lies about someone can be very difficult to prove to a mod, but can have huge repercussions in some communities.and besides, it can take a while before mods/admins are able to take action.
IMO I think a few things should exist.
I should be able to prevent someone from replying to my content even if I can't prevent them from seeing it.Additionally, I think there should be a best effort to make invite-only/private communities. I know that the fediverse makes this technically difficult, but having something is better than having nothing.
you dont get to make that decision
the fact that there are only public forums on lemmy is a problem itself.
If you want to be able to see when people spread “misinformation” about you, don’t block people.
what are you even talking about here?
thats not the entire extent of harassment. harassment extends far beyond insulting someone to their face.
me personally? I don't particularly care. i rarely use mute/block features.
but I understand that for some people, its a problem, because harassment doesn't just end at insults, it can also be spreading rumours and talking shit.
its not going to be obvious to onlookers that one person has muted another, so if the harasser goes all over the victim's posts saying terrible lies and rumours, then the victim should be able to know that and take action to stop it, even if the rumours aren't against the community/instance ToS, and the victim can't prove to the mods that the rumours are lies.
all of those are unrealistic options
I said that forking the community to begin with isn't realistic. There would be no "trans-friendly gaming" community because it wouldn't have enough members to sustain it. Lemmy is too small to sustain multiple communities for the same topic, for all but the most popular topics. When you see multiple communities for a topic, almost always all but one is a ghost town.
so splitting the community, or defederating aren't really optionshopefully going to mod, or failing that the admin, would be successful. but mods and admins are criminally overworked already, and lemmy is too small to maintain a healthy mod pool.
I don't have great technical solutions here, unfortunately.I'm just trying to explain that what OP wants is reasonable, and everyone here shitting on him is not being reasonable.
but the argument that I'm seeing is "its bad to even try to hinder it"
I know that the fediverse creates technical difficulties regarding privacy, but we can't even make a best effort so its not trivial for harassers?
the discussion was 2 years old, so I'm a bit fuzzy - it looks like it was only 1 person. but it was enough to convince me from basically saying what yall are saying here "don't expect privacy on a public site" to "there should be an attempt at privacy, and people facing harassment should have some measure of control to protect themselves"
I didnt feel the need to make the provide their credentials as a minority and prove to me that they're being harassed and that muting the harasser wasn't enough. What they said made sense.
lemmy communities and irl communities aren't the same, they only sometimes partially overlap.