as alive as you need me to be
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
Oh so you're the arbiter of the topic and the bounds of the conversation, I see.
And the topic is now not what you initially made an inquiry about, and I responded to, ok, ok.
... you gonna provide those statistics so I can try to understand them?
I was a data analyst and econometrician for the better part of a decade, I probably stand a decent chance at being able to parse them.
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
Hah do you mean the distance of the length of a knife, a swing or stab of a knife...
... or 21 feet?
That's the distance that cops in the US are taught that a person can close, with a knife, and stab you, before you're likely to be able to unholster and ready your gun.
Therefore, when not actively carrying your unholsteted weapon, anyone within 21 feet could potentially kill you.
Best not be that close and make any furtive movements when they're low on caffiene.
cop logic
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
Was that an acorn ?!
OFFICER DOWN, SUPPRESSING FIRE, TACTIKEWL ROLL!
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
I'd genuinely like to see your source on those stats...
But also, I don't doubt that those numbers you gave are at least pretty close to reality.
I never said comparable numbers of men and women will experience rape in their lifetime.
I don't think that's the case.
I just said that a lot of kinds of abuse that men go through is probably underreported, and not taken seriously.
These are not contradictory ideas.
Also its weird that you're asserting / assuming my emotionality on this topic.
Anyway, I guess I just hope then that women choose black bears and not brown bears, the brown bears will generally murder the fuck out of them every time, black bears you can fairly reliably intimidate and retreat from safely.
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
Uh... Ok.
What does that have to do with making dating work better and be safer for men and women?
Basically everyone has had some kind of trauma, of one kind of another.
I'm a dude. I've been molested and physically assaulted by former women partners.
And as a person fairly recently out of homelessness, still actually doing physical therapy to recover from all the injuries I incurred during that...
I can fairly confidently say I have experienced more violence than you can begin to comprehend.
But ... I don't go to dates, or just, when randomly talking to some woman I just met, in some social situation... and have the default mindset that they could all, each of them, specifically the one I'm talking to now, molest or assault or murder me.
And, again, I'm currently crippled, so if any of them wanted to, the physical sex difference between us would not really matter.
... But I don't live in irrational fear, because that's no way to live.
See what I did is went to therapy, faced my fears and feelings, worked through them, accepted them as parts of my past but not things that have to totally define me for the rest of my life...
I removed stressful things and people from my life, I learned CBT excersizes and use them when I catch myself starting to spiral.
You've given an explanation of why women can be fearful, ok, thats good, but... that's like step 1, or 0, of... 'how do we improve the general dating situation, how do we stop or solve the gender war?'
Persecute molestors as a kind of justice, to reassure women?
Society already does that, obviously not in all cases, but in an increasing amount of them, many people already do that on their own, as semi vigilantes or actual vigilantes or via callouts and such.
It is insufficient to alleviate the fear that women have.
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
While yes, there are slight methodological variations between data sources and subsequent analysis that use different data sources, as to what precisely constitutes a stranger...
The vast majority of them would consider a first physical date with a person you have not met or interacted with before, in person, too many times, as 'stranger.'
The idea is to seperate out people you've known and had a relationship with, of some kind, for a length of time ... vs someone you either don't know at all, or don't know that well.
So ... its more of a case of myself using a bit overly dramatic phrasing, than it is a case of the phrase itself doing rhetorical or logical heavy lifting to make the point.
Would a second date with same person put them in the stranger or known relation category?
That actually varies a lot between methodologies and studies and data sets.
There's not really a consistent, precise, universal standard, as there is with say mass shootings, which iirc are any event where 4 or more people sre injured or killed by gunfired.
Another place I can see this getting a bit fuzzy is say, you've been just online interacting with someone for months, or a year, and then you finally meet up for the first time in person.
Yeah, that situation?
Also gets very muddy by the way most of the methodologies work.
People seem to think there are like very consistent and clear standards and distinctions in this kind of data, that it all follows the same precise definitions.
... Its data that mostly comes from cops.
Its often not as clear as you'd hope.
But anyway...
Yes, absolutely, both people on a first date should probably have good awareness of red flags and what they look like.
... Do you see how having a legitimate fear of being murdered... is not that? Is not a kind of 'red flag awareness'?
Its a very serious fear.
Its a state of hypervigilance, a defensive/escape oriented posture.
Its... not a kind of pattern of behaviors or self described opinion or belief or desire or what not, that you could ascertain from talking to someone.
Unless you are going to tell me you have some kind of system for detecting the propensity of one person, in comparison to other people, to be a murderer, or potential murderer.
What the comic strongly implies is that what entire system boils down to is :
Is this person male? If so, potential murderer.
... Hopefully I don't need to further explain how that is a very flawed system of risk assesment.
Do you perhaps have a ... more comprehensive, more evidence based method of assessing a person's potential to be a murderer?
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
So, I didn't say we shouldn't talk about how to improve the situation.
I said that this particular fear is considerably overblown.
Those are not the same thing, please do not put words in my mouth.
But sure, yeah, lets talk about it!
How do you think we should improve the situation?
Should we continue normalizing an irrational level of fear and paranoia against an entire half of humanity, based soley on immutable characteristics they cannot change about themselves?
Or maybe we could instead try to actually have a productive dialogue of some kind?
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
You are describing a popular stereotyped fear that does not actually occur very often.
Are cringey incels real?
Yes, very much so, and they are very, very cringey.
Do they regularly go on femicide murdering sprees, or serial killer / horror movie style trap dates, in numbers that would make it make sense to generally, as a woman, fear becoming a victim of one?
Absolutely not.
The vast, vast majority of them are, you know, inept, ineffective, unsuccessful, withdrawn.
Is gun violence in general a very serious and increasing problem in the US?
Definitely yes.
Does conflating these two things without any attempt at analysis or precision help anyone understand what's actually occurring, what reasonable concerns are, what potential solutions could look like?
No.
Can you quantify 'the Incel factor'?
I would argue that the real immediate threat posed by Incels is their capability to do things like get fascists elected (or otherwise placed) into governmemt, who can then do things like enact their own direct violence, or remove access to woman's reproductive healthcare, which, as you can see in my original post... is a much, much more serious threat to the lives of women, than randomly being murdered at a first date.
You got any data on the number of femicides committed by incels on first dates?
I'd genuienly love to see it, if you have any.
The numbers I based everything off are real numbers, from FBI crime stats and academic papers based off of them.
The napkin math was just rounding some of them a bit, so that I could come up with that table, just by using a basic calculator app, instead of designing my own excel spreadsheet to get precise figures.
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
It's absolutely true that women v. men rape is underreported in the US, to at least some extent.
In many states, a woman forcing a man to have sex isn't even legally classed as rape or sexual assault, unless she is jamming something into his mouth or ass.
So it kind of just definitionally has to be underreported, if its not even a crime.
Male prison rape is still just a completely normal thing to be expected and to be laughed about.
Men are still broadly shamed by both other men and women for attempting to discuss trauma from themselves being physically or emotionally abused by women.
Women who groom and molest young boys are still somewhat given a bit more social leeway than Men who groom and molest young girls, though that gap seems to have been closing more rapidly than the other things I've mentioned.
Now... to what precise extent what kind of sex/cisgender opposing instances of rape and sexual
instancesassault (EDIT: whoops) exist... I mean yeah, you can't really argue data and figures about things that don't have data.But you can look at general IPV statistics and see that roughly, for every 4 or 5 women that report being a victim of some kind of IPV, there are 2 or 3 men reporting being a victim of some kind of IPV, yet the culture in general seems to place a proportionately outsized focus on women's struggles.
- JumpRemoved Deleted
Permanently Deleted
Going by the last year with comprehensive data and studies, 2023, in the US, your chance, as just being a person, of being murdered in a year is about 1 out of 15,624.
An average person is about twice as likely to die in a car accident in that same year.
Ok now lets break down by sex/cisgender.
Men are roughly 3x more likely than women to be one of those 1 out of 15,624 who gets murdered.
Ok now lets break down further by ... murdered by stranger vs murdered by someone the victim already knows.
Roughly 90% of women who are murdered, well they're murdered by people they already know and have substantial ties to: family members, long term partners, long term friends, husbands, coworkers, etc.
Not by strangers, first dates they just met.
Men are also more likely to be murdered by someone they know, though to a smaller proportion than women.
For male murder victims, its roughly a 60 / 40 split between people they already know, and total strangers, for female murder victims, its roughly 90 / 10, between people they already know, and total strangers.
So, with a bit of rounded napkin math:
1 out of ~15,000 chance of being murdered per year.
Rough total population of 330 million.
~ 22,000 murders per year.
~ 16,500 victims are male.
~ 9,900 males murdered by known relations
~ 6,600 males murdered by strangers
~ 5,500 victims are female.
~ 4,950 females murdered by known relations
~ 550 females murdered by strangers
... So, a woman's chance of being murdered, by a stranger, in a year, is roughly 1 out of 300,000.
A non elderly woman (adult, 65yo or under) in the US is between 3x (200%) to 50% more likely to die, in a given year, from a motor vehicle accident, a drug overdose, suicide, or a serious fall, than from being mudered by a stranger.
And they're roughly 30x more likely to die from pregnancy complications, than from being murdered by a stranger.
Intimate partner violence from a man that a woman is in a long term relationship with is a serious concern for women, that is backed up data, lots of academic research.
... being worried about getting murdered on a first date is not.
Same here, also an atheist, but you've got to be kidding yourself if you don't think that that song is an incredibly impressive piece of music, vocal performance, etc.
ding!
"If music be the food of love, play on."
-- Spock
"Did you not plan for this contingency? I mean, the Starship Enterprise had a self-destruct button. I’m just saying.”
-- Saul Goodman
- JumpDeleted
Permanently Deleted
... either he's gonna be that flexible, or he's going to giggle for half a day and not tell you the results of 'can a thermal camera pointed at a mirror see a fart?'
... my money is on 'not really'.
- JumpDeleted
Permanently Deleted
Husband now has fart-o-vision, expect some chores to not get done.
Nah, fuck em.
Let em go bankrupt, then, if we actually have a next administration, nationalize all farmland, convert them into local/regional co-ops where workers can vote on how things are run, if agro corps complain, nationalize them too.
Fuck the entire system.
Now, is that all likely to happen?
Probably not no.
But its not impossible, we just need enough Luigis, there really aren't that many people that comprise the hyperwealthy corpo oligarch class.
I identify as not a freeloading schlub, therefore, you must respect my fiscal gender.
- Some MAGA clownperson, probably seriously, probably on reddit 3 years ago.
Leftists are intolerant of fascists who want to kill and harm innocent people for no good reason.
Please go actually read the wiki page on the Paradox of Tolerance.
Its a bit of a misnomer, its not actually a paradox. The solution is do not tolerate the intolerant, otherwise the intolerant win.
Liberals are tolerant of fascists, which is why fascists are able to thrive, liberals attempt to take them seriously, defeat them in the battle of 'ideas', do battle with them in conventional ways which they essentially always fail out, because facists don't abide by the norms or civility politics that liberals build their entire political identity out of.
Their whole thing is breaking from all the liberal norms and standards, and liberals basically just continuously act 'shocked pikachu face' and aghast at every horrific thing a fascist says or does... while not resisting them in any actually meaningful way.
You can't make a bridge to a fascist. Doing that makes you either not a leftist, or a very very stupid one.
Just go look into the history of fascist movements, this same pattern plays out every time. Liberals make concessions to fascists and move to the right, increasing overall societal harm.
Leftists either vehemently oppose the fascists, or, in some instances, they attempt some kind of anti centrist alliance with the fascists out of expediancy, and then they nearly all get literally hunted down in the streets by the fascists if they do succeed at knocking out the center.
You can't logic a fascist into not being a fascist.
They're delusional cult members, they have 'alternative facts', and when they tire with those, they'll wrap around to some other avenue of discussion, lies you already debunked.
The only thing that can stop them is either 'impolite' means of resisting them, or just hoping the internal contradictions of their movement lead to its eventual implosion... without causing too much damage.
And they usually cause a very significant amount of damage by the time they metastasize, and afterward.
You know how I know you're telling the truth?
Well... it's a sin, to tell a lie.
Oh I mean, Doom's OSTs have had so many good songs, I didn't even think to mention to mention it lol, its like the basline from which 'intense frenetic action' is measured lol.
I didn't miss the point.
I understand that the general reality that women face is one of pervasive sexual predation, significantly high rates of IPV, being at significant physical risk in many ways.
I entirely agree that it is bullshit.
But I simply have another perspective.
I was the guy who'd start shit in bars with other guys I saw slipping roofies into drinks and then walking them over to girls.
I've never hit a woman, outside of a controlled kumite match in a dojo (where we both obviously consented to the idea of martial combat).
I've never sexually assaulted a woman, I've never even cheated on any of my partners... yeah I'm not an incel.
I've had a number of year+ long relationships, and when not in a committed relationship, I've had a number of flings.
I'm actually a fairly successful flirt whose problem seems to be that I'm better at flirting than I am at recognizing red flags.
But I also find the idea of having a 'roster' of 'situationships'... or in the older vernacular, a number of side-chicks... I find that fundamentally disgusting, have never done it myself, don't associate with guys who do.
(and just to be super clear, i don't de facto despise consensted polyamory / ENM, i just can't do it, im not built that way, its not for me)
I've actually had so many platonic female friends growing up, because I was genuinely a rather meek, restrained and polite kid, who didn't like the competitive machismo of pubescent boys... I had so many female platonic friends that I was frequently bullied as being gay.
I've been in multiple situations in my college years where I would get catcalled by women, where women would try to forcibly make out with me at parties, after I clearly indicated I wasn't interested.
Going even further... ~15 years after getting out of school and college... I've now been physically assaulted (as in, had to call the police, she got taken away in handcuffs, not me), forced into sex I didn't want to have (you know, raped), and seriously gaslit and emotionally abused by a number of former female partners.
While I recognize that my personal, anecdotal experience is a bit anomalous, extreme, compared to the statistical baseline... I don't think that its uncommon at all for most men these days to at least experience some of what I have.
But nobody talks or cares about any of that kind of stuff in anywhere near the the numbers, with anywhere near the frequency or intensity that women's struggles are talked about.
Yes, its more likely that a woman will experience IPV than a man... but its like 5 to 4 ratio or a 4 to 3 ratio... not the 9 to 1 ratio that the prevaling culture would give you the impression of.
When I look at this comic, I see, in addition to seeing women expressing fears that are to a certain extent very real and valid...
... I also see a continued minimization of what men go through. The comparative worries in the two panels are obviously set up, to dramatic effect, to make the man's worries seem insignificant... when a plain, literal reading, and undetstanding of the empirical statistical reality, will tell you that the man has a realistic fear, the woman does not.
I see women unfairly painting with an overly broad brush, that punishes, discriminates against just all men, regardless of their actual opinions or tendencies or past actions as individuals.
I see a situation where there's little point in attempting to go out on a date with a woman, if the generally socially accepted norm is that by default she is convinced you could murder her, and that's the starting point, you now have to somehow perform and signal sufficiently to dissuade that particular unrealistic fear, before an actual relationship can really even begin.
And I can tell you that at this point, simply most men, most men who are not violent murderers or rapists, who are not perma online like almost all of us in this thread... most men have an opinion that is somewhere around there.
So they're just learning to either suffer or be happy by themselves, to pursue other goals and interests outside of dating, because they don't have the energy to prove to every woman they meet that they're not going to kill her.
They're tired of being punished for things they didn't do.
I see that the overall situation, on both sides, is ... basically a self reinforcing doom spiral, where this only ever gets worse and worse, for both parties.
Some kind of actually productive dialogue has to happen, some kind of paradigm shift must occur, in order to halt this doom spiral.
There has to be some kind of way to stop talking past each other and start talking too each other, or this dysfunction is just going to broaden and intensify.
Otherwise, women will broadly continue to be hypervigilant by way of constantly being stressed and worried in any interaction or relationship with a man, and men who have no ill will, but are treated as if they do, will simply remove themselves from the dating scene, from broader social spaces where women are, from relationships.
Part of the feedback loop is that the well intentioned, stable, responsible, safe men... take themselves out of society first... so then... women see and experience proportionally more of the ill intentioned, unstable, careless, dangerous men... which leads to women having more and more intensly negative experiences with the men they do meet.
Its the survivorship bias mechanism, but sort of in reverse, its evil twin, something like that.
It amplifies the perceptual disconnect, between each of the two sides, and between each side and the actual empirical reality.
I woukd genuinely love it if there was some way to actually stop this destructive feedback loop, because it makes things worse for everyone.