Skip Navigation

ProdigalFrog

@ ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net

Posts

96
Comments

710
Joined

3 yr. ago

A frog who wants the objective truth about anything and everything.
Admin of SLRPNK.net
XMPP: prodigalfrog@slrpnk.net
Alt lemmy account: Cafefrog@lemmy.cafe

3d ago

DistroWatch - Mageia 10 Review
Jump
ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 3d ago
Yeah that's very strange indeed, wonder what happened between them?

3d ago

DistroWatch - Mageia 10 Review

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 3d ago

Ah, good find. I guess technically Mint isn't totally FLOSS, but it does seem a bit odd for them to phrase it that way.

3d ago

DistroWatch - Mageia 10 Review

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 3d ago

A ctrl+f search doesn't show that phrase anywhere on that page?

4d ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 4d ago

It truly is, and learning that virtually every DE is also using it was a wake-up call for me of how deeply this has infiltrated FLOSS projects (I would've assumed they would be less apt to jump on the band-wagon, especially after the environmental and ethical concerns became apparent, but... Most don't seem to care too much, if at all about that).

Especially disheartening that the kernel is turning such a blind eye to all this and ignoring you. They seem to be setting an example for other FLOSS projects to follow. I feel like it'll continue until some of them get slapped with serious infringement cases, then maybe that'll cause at least some to take action against LLMs.

5d ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 5d ago

An update on the different DE's stance on AI:

LXQt won't ban AI, and will allow code contributions.
MATE's Contributing.md on github explicitly allows AI contributions that are marked as AI.
Budgie has Claude submissions right in their github.
KDE's team is divided somewhat, but ultimately accept AI code.
Gnome allows AI code on most of their projects.

That leaves Cinnamon and Cosmic, both of which are currently unknown on their stance. If they turn out to both be pro-AI, that would mean most major DE's are pro-AI, leaving us with the Window Managers to investigate like i3, Qtile, etc.

Edit: I see Qtile has claude contributions already so... Egh...

Edit 2: Cosmic accepts LLM contributions.

Not looking good. At this point I'm guessing Cinnamon will as well.

5d ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 5d ago

Also update regarding the MATE desktop, I found in their Contributing text that they are following the Linux Kernel's lead on accepting LLM code, with only a requirement to tag it as being AI-assisted.

AI-assisted code receives no special treatment compared to human code. If disclosing AI assistance, use the Assisted-by format adopted by the Linux kernel guidelines. Do not use Co-Authored-By with AI tool accounts or vendor emails, as it pollutes the commit history.

So they're off the table as well :\

The Labwc wayland compositor (which MATE uses for wayland support), has similar guidelines in its Contributing file.

5d ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 5d ago

That's exactly the type of thing I had in mind! Thanks for the heads up :D

6d ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 6d ago

Ah man, that absolutely sucks. I went and read all of their responses. You did a fantastic job presenting a compelling case to them, thanks for taking the time to engage with them to find all that out.

I'm starting to see that avoiding slop even in the FLOSS world isn't going to be trivial, and more are jumping on board than I anticipated... I'm thinking it may be necessary and worthwhile to probe as many widely used FLOSS projects as possible on their stance to then compile the results into a list on codeberg (so others can contribute their findings as well), to make it easier for people to find software that refuses to use AI.

Maybe calling it the Slopless Software Project?

7d ago

What's a silly pet name or term of endearment I can use for my partner?

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 7d ago

My crumpet

1w ago

A major Windows 11 UI redesign is coming, Microsoft is dumping legacy code for WinUI

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

This comment in a different thread from someone who used to work for them gives some great background as to why.

1w ago

A major Windows 11 UI redesign is coming, Microsoft is dumping legacy code for WinUI

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

The other day I tried installing Star Wars Dark Forces 2 from disk, complete with a 'windows 95/98 compatible' blurb on it. Heroic launcher got the installer running without issue and within a few minutes it was playing.

I ended up using the Openjkdf2 engine instead for some nice quality of life improvements, but it was still quite something to see Linux run a piece of software from 1997 so effortlessly.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

It is very unfortunate there wasn't more standardization around compositors between all the major desktop environments, that part of it does suck.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

This is a direct quote from the linked blog:

Occasionally I’ll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features. I find it does a pretty decent job here, but I keep it on manual mode and often ask it to write the code in a different way, or take a different approach.

He is generating code and using it directly. AFAIK, being on manual mode in Claude just means approving or rejecting the each step of generated code, but it is generated and the dev appears to be using that generated code, which is introducing the risk of unknowingly using and shipping non-open source copyrighted code that the LLM trained on.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

Whether he's doing it blindy or paying close attention, or telling the AI to re-write it or code it in a different way, does not minimize the copyright infringement risk of the output of the code that is used. Only rewriting the output by hand would minimize that risk.

Manual mode just means he's approving, rejecting, or asking it to do something different for each step, but the output is still ultimately from the LLM.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

But he is still generating decent amounts of code with it as well, as he states:

Occasionally I’ll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features.

Generating that code is injecting copyright risk into the compositor.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

I haven’t heard of it happening and until it does it’s basically a non issue.

Projects that operate on that assumption are essentially sticking their head in the sand and hoping for the best. LLM output is on particularly shaky ground regarding copyright and it's vulnerability to being sued for plagiarism, see here: https://slrpnk.net/comment/23533549

I think it's a particularly dangerous gamble for projects based in the US, where the court system is extremely pro-corporation, making it likely to be much harder for a small FLOSS project to defend itself successfully.

Using the internet in any capacity directly helps the financi situations of the big tech companies

If someone gets their internet in the US, it is likely supplying a mega corporation with a monthly revenue stream, as internet providers are an oligopoly here. In other countries, this is often not the case.

Internet access in the modern day is, for the most part, extremely difficult to avoid needing in order to function easily in society.

In comparison, Corporate LLMs are extremely easy to avoid, and all of society got along fine without it just a few short years ago.

Is it not worthwhile to lower your fossil fuel use where possible, despite many in the US needing a car due to terrible public transport? Is it not also worth lowering animal meat consumption where possible for both animal welfare concerns and environmental concerns? I think there's equal merit in depriving as much capital (and thus power) from pro-fascist tech corporations as possible, even if it is not total.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

The reasons it's a problem (spoiler, click to expand)

The Licensing Problem:

Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs can’t afford to fight, especially in the US’s current extremely pro-corporate courts.

It’s putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.

Both Haiku OS and BSD are not allowing AI code contributions for this very reason.

The Ethical problem:

Simply using an AI that's run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.

Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEO's who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.

But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

I agree, that would be good to know.

1w ago

Xfce dev sponsored by Xfce project to create Wayland compositor admits to using Claude LLM/AI for development, dismisses ethical concerns

Jump

ProdigalFrog @slrpnk.net 1w ago

The problem is both using LLM code in an open-source project due to the threat that poses to the project if they unknowingly introduce copyright infringement, as as well as the very real ethical concerns inherent to using corporate owned and hosted LLM models.