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dragontamer

@ dragontamer @lemmy.world

Posts
8
Comments
291
Joined
3 yr. ago

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  • These people will be placed in concentration camps

    Passive voice because you're ignorant. Who will place people in concentration camps?

    Because the who is incredibly important in this scenario and tells us how to fight. Are you saying the military will be deployed to create concentration camps across America? Are you saying local Police need to build these camps and maintain them? Or, does Donald trump need to pass a new law + build a new organization from scratch that will oversee this?

    For-profit prison system still requires $$$$ to be pumped in for it to work. Where does Trump get the money for these facilities? Do the local states pay for them?

    I'm talking about our serious next option here. Not pie in the sky fantasy scenarios. The realistic move is a boneheaded attempt by Trump to deploy the military for a mass deportation attempt, but he hasn't thought that far ahead yet. He hasn't figured out where people will be imprisoned, he hasn't figured out how to train the military for this task. He hasn't figured out US Citizen rights during deportation sweeps. He hasn't figured out jurisdiction yet. Etc. etc.

    There's details to the plan that we can disrupt as it comes into fruition. We resist at every step and stop it at every turn possible.

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  • Refuse to hand over their jurisdiction to the military. Declare the military to be an unlawful invasion and a break of 10th Amendment rights. Etc. etc.

    At that point, you're turning the local police over to the Protester's side. And the Police hold strong sway over the local judges and politicians. FOP in particular is powerful lobbying group because they hold the blessings of the Police.

    What is Trump going to do? Order the military to fire upon the Police? Lulz. That's not how any of this works, and its not how coups work either. Over control of fucking St. Louis? Its not even worth the hassle.

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  • Need to put down a big protest in St Louis? Send in troops with live rounds, none of that less lethal bullshit. Maybe it takes a couple days longer to get them there, maybe there aren’t quite as many boots on the ground as you wanted, maybe they get deployed in kind of dumb ways.

    This is so fucking stupid I'm wondering if you're beginning to troll me.

    So what happens to St. Louis police in this scenario? You're saying that the Police will give up their authority to the Federal level? That's severely anti-Republican on all fronts.

    There's political forces at play here that you're seemingly completely ignorant about. Do you think the local chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police would allow military action to take place in their jurisdiction? Do you think that soldiers would be treated more (or less) specially than the local police? Do you not see how this causes distrust in the two groups?

    Do you think Trump is effective at recruiting and merging organizations so that such political actions proceed smoothly? (IE: Do you think St. Louis Police would deputize the US Military, or vice versa, to share authority in a way that both sides agree upon?)

    And that ignores the long-standing US Military tradition of staying the fuck out of local issues. The military command knows they're a bunch of killers. They don't want to deploy locally.

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  • So you're saying its like Swatting but even better?

    Cool. Lets see how that plays out.

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  • Incompetence means they won't be able to get anything done at all. Which leads to the rise of SS or other loyalist police groups (in the case of Putin: KGB/FSB).

    You're ignoring a huge part of what makes fascism actually work. The ability for orders to be carried out at all.

    Secondly, its not military powers that allowed SS to help Hitler or KGB/FSB to help Putin. Its police powers that let them do that. And Donald Trump has royally fucked his reputation with the FBI, the closest thing to a proper police agency.

    I'd keep an eye to see if Trump can successfully take over FBI, because that's where the worst-case scenario lies. But FBI lost their headquarters back in 2016 because Trump fucked them over, and Trump still hates them because of Jack Smith's most recent investigation. So I'm betting on incompetence here.

    Force means jack shit. Police powers are the powers to launch investigators and build intelligence. Knowing who and how and why to arrest people is the power of the Police. And a corrupt police is the most dangerous.

    Military? They can shoot but they don't know what to do after that. There are Military Police units, but they're too small for any real action. Its FBI and other police agencies that have the real power that you're talking about.

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  • US Neighborhoods aren't organized into "illegal" parts and "legal" areas.

    A mass deportation scheme means hassling, and likely invading, many legitimate homes of legitimate citizens. And once we start talking about what Republicans hide in their homes, its.... well... the usual stuff. Porn, Guns, and the like. But that's not the kind of things that Republicans like revealing to federal officials.

    Any mass deportation scheme will involve getting large numbers of Republicans personally involved into the mess. Maybe there's no risk of deportation (especially if they're white). But its still a huge hassle, and having legions of police and/or military going door-to-door looking for illegal anything makes anyone uncomfortable (even if they're "only" hiding guns and porn in their basement).

    I'd expect most Republicans to demand to see the warrants and close their doors until proper documents are shown. Which then provides Undocumented the cover they need (ie: now the Undocumented can do the same thing: just ask for a warrant and close the door otherwise).

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  • Doesn’t matter. A fascist at the head of government, whose party is in line behind him, controlling all branches of the federal government, having enough military support, can shush as many opinions as he wants.

    The military is incredibly weak when it comes to domestic matters. Without police training, they will be incompetent.

    There's a reason why part of Hitler's rise required the rise of the SS, a separate branch of the military AND police that was loyal to Nazism and Hitler alone.

    What Trump is going to do next is cut off the heads of our Military and try to bring them under his control. What will actually happen is that US Military will become incredibly weak, as leaders are the experts in navigating the bureaucracy and actually getting things done. Installing dumbass loyalists at the top won't do much, and I'm not convinced that there's enough competent leaders in Trump's circles to actually do everything he wants to do.

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  • Outrage can stop it if we present it in the correct argument to them.

    What happens to the assets of illegal aliens that are deported? I bet that the police seizes it and then its auctioned off (or something close to that). So now we have a pretty straightforward story of federal level officials invading the homes of US Citizens and trying to steal their bitcoins.

    The far-right outrage writes itself at that point, if they really go the route of mass deportations. But we need to make the event truly outrageous when it happens, and not just in a leftist mindset. The truth of mass deporations is horrific even to those with far-right viewpoints. But you have to frame the argument correctly.

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  • Yeah that's called a US Army Private.

    What you're ignoring is how fucking dumb an 18Y Old with a gun is. There's a fucking reason we don't use them in US Territories. When the bloodshed starts, it will be because dumbass high-school dropouts opened fire in an American neighborhood.

    What you're also ignoring is that US Army commanders know this. They know how dumb their recruits are. Its the job of the commander to make sure the troop under them are put on missions where they have the correct and proper training. A "serious" Army Commander would refuse any immigration / customs job, because US Military troops are simply NOT trained for this. US Military are trained to kill people and should only be used to kill people. That's why we focus on using them outside of the USA.

    Like, seriously. Do you expect a 18Y old high school dropout to handle a warrant over a house correctly?

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  • And what will anyone be able to do about it?

    We tie it to deep state federal officials invading private US Homes. And then Republican support collapses over the events.

    Speak the language of the Republicans and they'll agree with you on this. Invading private homes with US Troops, looking for contraban (ie: illegal immigrants in this case) with mass warrants would be uncomfortable to even Republicans in these areas.

    If Republicans really are cool with this then whatever. Onto the next bulwark. But we need to prepare our arguments and discussion points. But we will work to defend our political rights at each stage of this process as Trump tries to do random bullshit.

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  • You say that. But the minute people's private homes get invaded by US Troops, US citizen's opinions will immediately change.

    Republicans are strongly pro-4th Amendment and are distrustful of the police as well. Getting wrapped up in police raids just because you live in the wrong neighborhood will piss off a LOT of Republicans. And a mass program that forces citizens to ICE / Police / Military into your house (be it a massive push for warrants, or some other mass-scale law) would be a significant number of breaks with the Constitution.

    Remember: the Republicans are "Deep State" fuckers who distrust federal officials. Do you really think they'd be cool with orders that let police into their private homes?

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  • This is a border patrol agent invading a Miami Home to take that small boy on the right (Elian Gonzalez) back to Cuba.

    This was a defining moment of the 1990s. What happened here was a Cuban family had a claim on Elian Gonzalez, meaning not only was he an illegal alien, arguably the US-side of the Family was kidnapping him. Gonzalez's father (Cuban side) pushed heavily for US to get Elian back. Ultimately, Clinton agreed with the Father and used deportation agents to capture the child and bring him back to Cuba (effectively deporting him).

    Nonetheless, armed troops invading a Miami private home caused a national-level outrage event. Even though it was a 100% illegal alien with a 100% legitimate claim to be deported (ie: be reunited with his Father).

    The stories of what will transpire here under Trump will be far more horrific and less gray. They will likely include US Citizens who forgot to hold onto a Driver's License and suddenly are disappeared (especially if he uses untrained dumbasses like US Military, composed largely of 18 year olds who were too dumb to go to college).

    We can rely upon the outrage that will occur, but only if we document and take pictures of the horror. The focus needs to be on documenting the horrors as the next step. In any case, no reasonable troop will want to be seen as the man on the left, and no commander will want to be the one to sign their name okaying something like this again.

    That also ignores 4th Amendment issues and court cases. How many homes and warrants are they going to issue? Just fucking everyone in a neighborhood? Like how do you actually make this work?

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  • If it gets that far, and I'm not convinced it will, Troops aren't trained for immigration issues.

    Do you think 18 year old dumbass Privates and Corporals know the difference between a Puerto Rican US Citizen and an illegal Mexican? Do you think US Troops have any training on police actions? Lawyers or courts?

    That's a disaster waiting to happen. We use troops rarely because they're dumbasses with a gun. We give them exceptional fighting training, but no training on finer details of policing. Use of force will be too high, rights will be trampled, US Citizens will 100% get caught up as military has no fucking training on this subject.

    If it gets that far, then we know what to do. Take pictures, document, build national level outrage.

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  • Its the next political bulwark and where we rally next. If Trump runs over that bulwark, then we make plans afterwards.

    But the Military will NOT want to be seen going house-to-house deporting Puerto Rican American Citizens. I know there's a lot of racists out there, but if they do that, we just take some pictures and the national level outrage and blatant racism on the troop's faces will be shown for everyone. And trust me, if a mass deportation order were invoked, 100% legal US Citizens will be swept up in the blatantly racist attack.

    These people cannot tell the difference from an illegal Mexican, a legal Haitian or a US Citizen Puerto Rican. I'm serious. So that's no longer a Trump-specific thing at that point. That's commanders and soldiers who will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

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  • Plenty of pigs are already on his side, and would help him with this willingly.

    In some red states, yes. But that's largely in rural areas. I'm not sure if even a city in a deep-red state like Houston would cooperate with Trump.

    Its not up to the Police in any case. It'd be likely up to the local Attorney's General.

    Also, as president, SCOTUS has already ruled that he can pretty much do what he wants as long as it’s an “official” act.

    If Trump wants to personally come down and deport Mexicans one by one, I'd love to see it. But otherwise, Trump is going to write a thing that likely won't make sense. Local police won't get any money for immigration issues and will complain about funding and long hours. Then all the shit will collapse unless Congress gives more money for a deportation program.

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  • There are not enough ICE officers to conduct mass deportation in red states, let alone blue ones. Trump will require cooperation of local police.

    If he uses the military in Blue states, it's an obvious attack on the 10th Amendment. It's also illegal to use the military for domestic police work.

    We can bet on incompetence for now. Trump needs to grow ICE to a large size before he's even able to conduct a large scale deportation plan of any kind. Deploying the National Guard would be a faux pas, but that's probably the workaround else need to prepare for legally.

  • Blue state resistance builds against Trump

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  • I think you are getting dragged into a bad and useless semantic debate.

    Are you saying that my only mistake was saying Court of New York rather than New York Court of Appeal? Or is there any more fundamental problem to my earlier argument?

    I'm not pretending to be a lawyer here. But the state level courts are independent of the federal courts. And Federal Agencies (like ICE) have been historically hampered due to 10th Amendment issues. ICE overwhelmingly relies upon local police to cooperate to get much done.

    This might be a legal issue that will be battled over the next 4 years in the supreme court, but I'd expect that Blue State resistance of this manner is our next best battleground to choose. We've lost the Presidency and both houses of Congress and the Supreme Court. That leaves Blue State courts (whatever their name) as the next defensive bulwark.

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  • Blue States overwhelmingly voted for Harris.

    It was PA, Michigan, Arizona and Georgia where the Presidency was lost. But California and New York will solidly resist Trump, much as free states resisted slavery centuries ago.

    Don't knock out history here. Sanctuary states/cities, free states, etc. etc. have a huge cultural impact and the states people WILL rally to the call. As long as we frame it correctly

    I've got my Harriet Tubman underground railroad stop and the history all part of my State Public education, and I know all my fellow state citizens also got that education. We know the drill.

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  • https://courts.delaware.gov/supreme/

    The Delaware Supreme Court is the highest court in the State of Delaware. The Court has final appellate jurisdiction in criminal cases in which the sentence exceeds certain minimums, in civil cases as to final judgments and for certain other orders of the Court of Chancery, the Superior Court, and the Family Court. The Supreme Court has discretionary jurisdiction to issue writs of prohibition, quo warranto, certiorari, mandamus or to accept appeals of certain non-final orders or certified questions.

    There is a single Delaware Supreme Court. There is a SINGLE New York Supreme Court.

    If the Federal Courts are cooked, then we will make judgements within our state-level courts. And the state-level courts have the final word within their respective jurisdictions. The Federal Supreme Court has very little power over state-level courts.

    This shit is WHY we have the 10th amendment.

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  • With all due respect: I'm talking about the age-old strategy of Blue States protecting who Red States cannot protect. During the time of slavery, Northern States emancipated the slaves. The slaves had to get to the north somehow (ie: Harriet Tubman), but that's just how our laws and legal systems work.

    Is this a good thing that we have to go back to centuries-old bulwarks to protect ourselves? No. This is a regression. Nonetheless, these old fortresses of law stood the test of time, and its time for us to man this next level of posts. This legal tradition can also be blown over by a chaotic enough group, but its the most obvious place as the "next stand" we should do together.