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OpenStars

@ OpenStars @discuss.online

Posts
4
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1235
Joined
3 yr. ago

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Only one but... yeah, yeesh, that's even being mentioned in other social media platforms, like Mastodon and Bluesky, although ironically my DuckDuckGo search couldn't find anything in Reddit.:-P

    I will take some ownership of my experience and try out some other apps, but I do see where someone currently used to Reddit is going to feel like Lemmy is a very significant downgrade in terms of UX. PieFed is trying to help - adding support for things like user & post flairs, polls, emoji reactions, along with significantly stronger filters - but it has its own overly-opinionated "daddy must control everything" issues (though tbf, literally all of those are opt-out iirc, and better yet most are even opt-in).

    Still, it's too complicated for most non-technical normies to want to bother with, if the experience right out of the box is not good, and all the more so when there are these stories about how toxic we are floating around our there, making them wonder why they should even bother.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • I mean... some do, yeah. But I did not enjoy such content (as e.g. AITA) when I was on Reddit, so it is definitely by no means all that do. (Then again, I am also here rather than there so... perhaps not the best argument for me to be pointing to right now:-P)

    But what is wrong with wanting software to be easy to use, access, and understand?

    When I receive a reply in PieFed, the web browser UI will auto-scroll down to it. Unless there are lots of comments, and then sometimes I have such an extremely difficult time finding a comment buried amidst all the others that I literally have to give up and go back to Lemmy to see it. This has gotten simultaneously both better and worse over the last year, in different ways. Rimu is unfortunately not much interested in the UX/UI side of things.

    In Lemmy, my Voyager app (on multiple devices even!?!?!?) keeps forgetting my login password over and over again, making it difficult for me to use (I have no idea if that's common or not, or like different when installed via FDroid vs. the Play/App stores?), so I gave up on it at least temporarily (who wants to have to remember their password?:-P).

    So am now seeing your comment reply here in my web browser (Firefox on Android). Here I have to scroll WAAAAAAAAY the fuck down past this exceedingly long post to get to it (no quick button as Voyager offers, no auto-scroll to a comment reply and I believe Voyager does and definitely PieFed does as well), plus then toggle showing the parent so I know what we were both replying to, then start over again to scroll WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down again, to finally be able to read and comprehend what you were saying.

    If you ask me, we could stand to make things a little easier to use here. Maybe I can find a better app or make better use of one or something, but in any case I sympathize with new people who face all these same hurdles, yet do not know the structure of how things work here, nor even whether it will be worth their time to invest in order to learn.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • And that mismatch between the claim and reality is what will - if anything does - doom the entire Threadiverse to irrelevance. It's understandable that inside the echo chamber they refuse to see what is plain, but what is far less fine is when everyone else simply goes along with it, with zero pushback.

    Lemmy is a Nazi tankie bar (for anyone who does not know, see Paradox of Intolerance). The lack of moderation is why whenever Lemmy gets brought to in outside mentions, it is as the butt of a joke and laughed at (I've seen it treated such in Reddit, X, Bluesky, Tildes, etc.).

    Here is a perfect example: https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/1uiywal/should_we_switch_to_lemmy/. An entire community was deciding whether to move here or no, and the majority of the top comments are basically just "lolz no fucking way". A few examples:

    My answer is no. I have tried repeatedly to use the Lemmy/Piefed and have bounced off each time because the platform is fundamentally at odds with good content. Bluesky's upcoming Reddit alternative shows far more promise and I'd personally wait for that.

    I tried switching to Lemmy a long time ago, but that place is toxic and full of weird people.

    There are big pockets of radical tankie communities on Lemmy that like trolling and being toxic

    There are a lot more reasons than this but having spent the last 3 years on the fediverse alternatives, and just seen the shit that happens over there, I feel very confident in saying it will not ever serve as a serious Reddit alternative. It will serve as something, but not Reddit

    Lemmy is shit. So is reddit but Lemmy is shittier

    Lack of proper moderation... I once saw CP and have never used fediverse ever since. I'd rather not use social media at all than to take part in half measures

    To be fair, some of these issues are older now - like PieFed has basically solved the onboarding issue, and db0 solved the CP spam one from years back, though such events tend to stick around in people's memories... and I cannot honestly state that the lack of moderation has gotten any better. MAYBE will the upcoming release of Lemmy v1.0??? Though I exceedingly doubt that, especially after seeing what happened to Lemm.ee.

    Also tbf, people did recommend Beehaw and mander.xyz as sensible choices. The former was more or less soundly rejected by bringing up its defederation status from lemmy.world, cutting it off from the majority of the Threadiverse communities (although the ones locally on it i think are quite nice - I've never had a negative interaction with any of them), and the point that a single cadre of super-mods controls the entirety of what is allowed to be said on it, which is what they would be wanting to get away from by leaving Reddit. Browsing locally on mander.xyz though... that just might work!? But only if you are exclusively interested in STEM and basically nothing else.

    Being a tankie bar is our choice, but others refuse to enter into that journey alongside us. So long as we entertain the most toxic among us, refusing to distinguish them in any way from anyone else, mainstream normies are going to refuse to put in the enormous amount of effort required to do that work for themselves, and so will simply stay on Reddit or move to corporate solutions (like Bluesky) that do not shirk from doing so, rather than enjoy the Fediverse where they would be free but that also requires the high amount of effort that comes with that.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • It would be great to have opt-in choices to either enter or not be forced into entering such spaces. Like I do not wish that e.g. ChapoTrapHouse did not exist, I only wish that proper labels would be more readily visible so that people would not stumble into them unawares. Likewise, Lemmy.ml's disallowance of criticism of Russia, China, or North Korea is not exactly easily read from the instance sidebar, nor is that sidebar readily visible from most 3rd-party apps that I have seen - especially when browsing by All, which how else would someone even browse, especially when new and haven't subscribed to much yet?

    So agreed that labeling would solve most of the issues. But if e.g. Lemmy.ml refuses to allow any criticism of Russia, China, or North Korea, then at least someone would be aware that it has chosen to be an echo chamber in that manner (while others choose to be echo chambers in different ways - e.g. PieFed chooses to restrict votes to a daily quota rather than topic-based, which is just a different style of filtering).

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Ironically, PieFed has allowed such things for something like a year already - e.g. with keyword filters someone who does not want to view content involving "Trump" or "Musk" can avoid it on a personal level, without requiring a mod to make that decision for everyone.

    Likewise, for all the flak it has received, the "reputation" visual indicators put additional power into the hands of end-users to decide how they best would like to interact with others on the platform.

    Another one, back to actual filters again, is an automated collapsing or even filtering of comments below a certain score threshold. I always turned those off, but for those who want them they are neat to have - not every moment of every day does every person need to be ready to read such content, sometimes people just want a break from anything controversial and to enjoy a pleasant read?

    Lemmy is glacially slow to add new features so I wouldn't hold my breath for these anytime soon, but FYI, they do already exist elsewhere.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • It's not a quip - we've had quite in-depth discussions about this topic before and people have outright stated that they do not want normal folks to come here (example). Something about barriers to entry keeping this place a safer haven against undesirable segments of the population. I disagree with that viewpoint, but that is my background context.

    It would indeed be nice if this place was more welcoming to people, imho. And being a technical person myself, who is here, I was only going by what people said about this place when they left it or refused to join. Early on, during the Rexodus (when Huffman spurned 3rd-party app developers and thereby many of us left in protest, foreseeing what Reddit was about to become - "when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time"), the most common refrain was that it was too empty and too complicated to figure out. Later, the most common mantra (in e.g. r/Redditalternatives) it shifted to still being too empty but also far too toxic (example), even people sticking around on Lemmy for several years but eventually leaving as a result (example that is not Reddit - I've also seen similar on Bluesky as well but it's much harder to search for those).

    Like here is a great example of a recent discussion of people on Reddit deciding whether to come here: https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/1uiywal/should_we_switch_to_lemmy/. The poll said yes to move but with major pushback. Some selected comments:

    I have tried repeatedly to use the Lemmy/Piefed and have bounced off each time because the platform is fundamentally at odds with good content. Bluesky's upcoming Reddit alternative shows far more promise and I'd personally wait for that.

    I tried switching to Lemmy a long time ago, but that place is toxic and full of weird people.

    There are a lot more reasons than this but having spent the last 3 years on the fediverse alternatives, and just seen the shit that happens over there, I feel very confident in saying it will not ever serve as a serious Reddit alternative. It will serve as something, but not Reddit

    I went to lemmy website and i felt it's bit complicated, surely I can surpass that with any yt video or guide but I didn't had enough will to do that

    This one is misspelled but reflective of many longer comment replies saying similar - honestly I think a lot of people got confused by not understanding the difference between the "Local" vs. "All" sorting. Obviously a lot of that will depend on people's method of access, e.g. a 3rd-party app vs. web browser UI, and also PieFed has basically solved the onboarding issues, though PieFed has its own... problems to contend with (leading to an exodus of some of the highest contributors to it, I mean to say PugJesus but also I've seen others say the same things since they no longer feel welcomed, which in turn is only going to exasperate the lack of content issue still further).

    Sorry if I somehow implied that gender discrimination was not an issue, I just wanted to add that it is not the only one - it is merely one among many that turn people away. Including you, until you found your groove, but many won't stick around long enough to do so.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • I meant the Threadiverse as a whole.

    Often I see that phrase spoken by e.g. a trans person who does not want to deal with anti-trans language, and so would rather that their instance not federate so broadly than to encounter such in the wild. It makes sense to me - that's literally the purpose for which blahaj was constructed, hence allowance of right-wing viewpoints goes counter to that purpose.

    Or from pro-Palestinians who do not want to see anything other than rabid acceptance of that viewpoint either. Anyone who is wrong there is not acceptable to exist here, even in more entry-level spaces designed for such, and even if allowance of the latter might help to change people's minds.

    The Threadiverse is not a place for "open discussions", it is a giant echo chamber reflective of the values of the majority. Tbf it could in theory be whatever people want, like if a right-wing instance were to be created (I think one does exist even!?) and then go to all the trouble of getting people to join it, but in practice it's all just took much effort. The network effect is real. So if the majority of people here want to be a certain way then... that is that, and unlikely to ever change.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Yes and having a /local feed might be even more critical for someone in a similar situation as you also! I am glad you have found a solution that works well for you:-).

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Thank you for clarifying, no I actually meant non-technical folks who don't spend as much time in introspection, as opposed to e.g. creating things. An example could be a comics artist, or a craftsperson, let's say working with wood, who gets confused by all the technical hurdles needing to be overcome in order to join the Threadiverse. We (who use Linux btw) thought virtually nothing of any of that, even finding it fascinating how and why the entire Fediverse is able to function as it does, but they tend to feel daunted at such and turn away rather than engage.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • You seem to be speaking sincerely, yet while entirely missing my points. I was not speaking against communism, I was speaking against "communism" in name only, while actually being fascism in disguise. For example, if you think about it, doesn't almost everything you say work well as a description about Putin and modern Russia, both of which many call "communist" (despite being ostensibly a "democracy", while in reality a totalitarian regime, and definitely capitalist rather than "socialist")?

    This idea that the likes of Russia, China, and North Korea are simply going through a fascism phase after which they will eventually emerge into being ideologically pure seems the height of naïveté to me. Never once in the entire history of the world has that ever worked out in practice, and there is no proof that it ever will. However, this idea that in the meantime all other forms of government must be converted into your theoretical ideal, despite going against all logic and history, THAT style of thinking is going to LITERALLY get me ACTUALLY killed irl.

    Some modes of thinking are actually genocidal in their outcomes - and yes I know the counterargument is that "it'll be worth it later, just trust me bro", but as I said I do not believe that.

    Anyway, this is not a politics community and thinking ahead to how my death can better serve someone else's theoretical ideological agenda is somewhat triggering to me for some reason, so let's not go any further into this tangent. I've had this identical discussion over and over before and it never seems to solve anything at all ever.

    I want to disengage here, but I hope you will continue to think about the points I raised. Fwiw, I promise you I've put literally decades of thought into your points already.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • There are no ads here, and no corporate Algorithm to contend with, plus everything is entirely freely offered. If we were more welcoming to mainstream normal folks, people would be outright flocking here.

    In fact, people have checked us out and even made accounts, but at least half the people that came here have since left, often self-reportedly after remaining here for at least one or multiple years. We are driving them away in droves. Possibly we do not (collectively) want them here.

    What we "need" (in order to survive) vs. what will actually be done are entirely separate matters.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Hey I resemble that remark!! 🤓

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • I think it is too early for such specialized niches tbh. The vast majority of those continue to die off due to lack of content. Even if you rigorously posted something literally every single day for three years straight - as so many of our communities have done before, just look back into our history - the community can still die off due to lack of engagement when nobody else is posting alongside you.

    I don't mean to focus entirely on the negatives here, just saying that merely posting is by itself insufficient. Additional posters and other engagers are not going to magically spring up from nowhere.

    A lot of the issues can be solved by technological improvement - e.g. whenever you click on a link to a post and it goes to some other Threadiverse instance rather than automatically opening up in your home instance, where you can reply and vote and that applies your chosen filters (hehe, dark mode?:-P) - that leads to frustration rather than drawing people further in.

    In the meantime, I think we need to accept that the audience here simply is not a large enough size to support whole entire communities that nobody even knows about and therefore will not participate in. Also, a LOT of people currently on Reddit are American, Christian, and centrist or even right-wing, who ABSOLUTELY do not feel welcomed here (what with all the constant calls for the deaths of everyone in any Western culture, especially the USA right now, what with all the invading other nations and such). So since the Threadiverse has chosen to remain tiny rather than welcome others to come join here, the audience for the vast majority of niche content simply is not and will not in the foreseeable future every be here.

    This instead of a community dedicated to "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine", we just have the likes of c/tenforward and c/risa that more generally hold all content in a larger category. Perhaps accepting that and posting to those larger categories will help make them more lively? PieFed offers post and user flairs to help sort content so that we can have our cake and eat it too - both aggregate into the larger communities (for discoverability) yet still help people find the niche material that they want as well. I think Lemmy was talking about eventually adding something along those lines as well.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • I would love to see spaces for centrists and even right-wingers to discuss matters - how can anyone be expected to learn in a vacuum without that? However, I can see the argument that such a space need not be here.

    I find it the height of irony that many right-wingers are much more able to discuss topics with one another than left-wingers - e.g. Jordan Klepper videos, especially his behind-the-scenes discussions about making those videos. Or perhaps a better formulation is that extremists/zealots are incapable of truly rational discussion regardless of political affiliation (though on top of that there truly seems something about the Right that facilitates ability to discuss matters more readily than the Left, with less judgement in advance than the incessant purity beatings, which seem to presume knowing the other person's mind completely even before they've barely begun saying anything yet).

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • FYI the Threadiverse is currently shrinking. After the Rexodus we had ~55k monthly active users, whereas now we are down to (but stable at) ~35k.

    This is especially notable occuring as it does alongside Reddit actively killing off access to old-reddit and placing even stricter blocks on browsing new-reddit in a mobile browser rather than their shitty app.

    I no longer hold out hope that the Threadiverse will ever grow (much) beyond this level, without some major interventions that expend effort to solve the current reasons why people keep leaving in droves.

    One of those those being easier on-boarding for new accounts, which PieFed more or less solved, while another being toxicity, which seems to only get worse over time (perhaps moderator reports finally being able to federate in Lemmy's upcoming v1.0 will help, but I am not holding my breath for that).

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • I will add that challenging someone's viewpoint respectfully is quite a different thing from a lot of what goes on in this social media environment.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Fwiw, PieFed has had it for many months. It is not uncommon to wait for a feature for >5 years in Lemmy (like moderator reports federating between instances) so if it is truly "critical" for you, there is a way to get it right this instant. I don't know of any PieFed instances in Sweden but there are some nearby.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • Unfortunately that is exceedingly difficult to do. Everything here wraps back around to it - it's in practically every community regardless of whether they were ostensibly for sharing memes, comics, or even discussions on "Fediverse" matters.

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • The other reason that lemm.ee shut down was its intentional choice to open itself up to all-comers. Hexbear, Lemmygrad, incels for whom no means push forward harder, all are welcome come right in. Obviously it became too much for the mods to keep up so they quit, thereby leaving the task of moderation to their instance admins, who also subsequently quit, and therefore shut down the entire instance. You can correctly say that it was toxicity that killed that instance, but the other side to that is that they were the ones who opened themselves up to that choice.

    As the subscriber numbers for the entire Threadiverse continue to fall (now at ~35k monthly active users, down from the post-Rexodus peak of ~55k), there may be some lessons in there for us all to learn from. I am not entirely certain but perhaps one is that while echo chambers are bad, the opposite of that (a cacophony of shit takes, like 4chan?) is exhausting and arguably equally bad, just for different reasons. It turns out that when nobody filters what you have to say in any way, a lot of what gets said under those conditions ends up being not worth hearing, objectively speaking (in the sense that people leave rather than stick around to hear it).

  • Some thoughts after 3 years on Lemmy

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  • The message has been corrected 3 times already in response to user feedback and changed its whole style of handling corrections at least once - that is highly unusual (next to unheard of) behavior for a bot? Maybe someone ran the initial text through an AI for cleanup but that's a far cry from being a clanker themselves personally.

    As for the project itself, I did not need to look all that deep to notice that it found several brands that were improperly labeled, at which point I can well understand people upvoting at least a partial solution as being better than nothing being done about the situation at all.