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commie

@ commie @lemmy.dbzer0.com

Posts
4
Comments
597
Joined
3 yr. ago

i am more than willing to engage on any positive claim you want to make (i probably agree with a lot of them). what i’m not willing to do is tolerate personal attacks and dogpiling.

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  • i have a high degree of certainty that there were cigarette smokers who want regulation, and industrial workers who wanted to stop asbestos. if we were to look at congressional testimony in the usa, it would probably show just that.

    but the other user isn't saying we should only rely on meat-eaters. most meat-eaters do think that animals should be treated humanely (i recognize their definition is at odds with yours), and would likely back stricter humane slaughter regulations. you seem to be saying that's not good enough, and i find it understandable that the other user has become quite jaded about helping animals at all in the face of your purism.

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  • Is there just a crossover point for you or you think if noone ate meat that graph would still go up?

    i honestly don't know. i do know vegans exist, and i suspect there are more now than ever, but the line still goes up.

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  • i'm saying it's not causal or, at least, it requires more than simply making a thing for it to be bought by someone. fidget spinners are a great example. lots were made with no real understanding of their potential market. some were sold just because it's a cheap toy but it could easily have been any other similarly priced toy. the production created its own demand there, but not enough to empty every fidget spinner from a warehouse. so some other mechanism must be at play besides production (advertising, for instance). regardless, it certainly can't be the case that demand actually caused all those fidget spinners to have been produced.

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  • it appears that the plan of creating government regulation is effective at stopping production, and no causal link to demand is outlined in your hastily-googled abstract.

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  • Well, your graph could just as easily support my position as it could go against it.

    no, it' can't. this is an unscientific claim.

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  • Do you have anything else that proves being vegan is an effort in futility?

    i've never said that. i think if you want to avoid animal products, then doing so is its own reward. but if you want to decrease animal slaughter, it's ineffective.

    i suggest that you go where animals are being slaughtered and stop it.

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  • I see a line that could be higher if not for the personal choice of a collective of vegans, vegetarians, and generally healthier people.

    you can't prove a counterfactual. but it is a fact that vegans exist, and the chart continues to rise.

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  • i think supply creates its own demand, but i don't believe there is any causal mechanism by which choosing to buy something causes more of it to be produced, nor that production causes others to purchase it.

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  • i'm saying if what you're claiming is true, then it would follow that the growth of the industry would stop and reverse.

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  • So I guess I chose the easy one.

    but if it's ineffective, then it is no better.

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  • What kind of proof do you want and I’ll go find it for you how’s that.

    i'd like proof of a causal mechanism by which choosing to buy beans has caused meat production to decline. i don't think you can find any such causal mechanism.

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  • what you're presenting is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc. both of those declined in production following the introduction of color television as well. we can't very well say that color caused a reduced production. in fact, you haven't actually presented any evidence that less asbethos or cigarettes are being produced.

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  • We’ve had this argument like twice already.

    and you still haven't seemed to grasp the lack of evidence for your claim.

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  • Do I need to send you university debate level arguments

    i'm not interested in debate. i'm interested in provable claims.

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  • your graph would go up quicker if all vegetarians and vegans went back to eating meat,

    as i can't prove a counterfactual, i wouldn't make any such claim. i have no reason to believe that production could increase any faster.

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  • I never claimed that me being a vegan would end animal suffering.

    you did say it would reduce it, but all the evidence is that is not true.

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  • Factory farms won’t get better until demand reduces

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  • i didn't say there is anything wrong with it. and if their plan (increased welfare standards) leads to that, i would think you would support it.