Another traveler of the wireways.
I understand the hesitation, which is why I've been trying to monitor its developments closely. Hence why I linked the example of someone testing out a small network ATProto relay, and why I also dug up this post about self-hosting different parts of the ATProto infrastructure the other day.
From what I've observed, there's no pushback against people doing so, and the only things stopping people are the usual: time, costs, knowledge, motivation, etc. For the first step to really happen at all there have to be people with the resources and motivation to do so, which is always the tricky part. In a small way part of my OP is intending to encourage anyone with both to give it a shot, as I lack some of the necessary resources to try it myself.
It's not so much that ActivityPub can't scale up, so much as that for one, as I've understood it that's not really been desirable anyway (undermines the point of decentralization/distribution), and for two, it starts getting bogged down as you already recognize. It also runs into similar, if not worse, cost problems to operate as ATProto's full network approaches are now.
ActivityPub is more suited to scaling across multiple instances/sites than up, and I'd argue that's its strength. It unintentionally has an implosion threshold to counter centralization in terms of cost and performance.
On the other hand, ATProto's advantage is that it enables scaling up while also enabling better data portability. I'm aware of work on this with ActivityPub as well, but it's still very early stages. My thinking is that there may be some ways to work with both to push towards their similar shared aims in terms of an open social web, with more flexibility in moving between spaces and adjusting experiences to better find what one wants from these different spaces.
Ideally they would be compatible, I agree.
Also you're right regarding the capacity to scale up, and frankly, while ATProto makes it feasible, I don't think it's necessarily desirable even with ATProto. Part of the point of it is to have various independent relays that would better distribute the load, and enable people's mobility when any of them go bad. Setting that aside, they don't all have to be full network relays, in fact someone is already toying with running a small network relay.
I also agree regarding moderation problems at a larger scale, and that ActivityPub's various software should take this as a wake-up call to improve the user experience, not so much for "big social media vibes" but for a better, less finicky experience.
However I also think there are potential benefits to ATProto, which blended together with ActivityPub, could make both better overall. The technical literacy and insistence on independent servers of the ActivityPub culture could make ATProto properly distributed and federated, which would be far better than letting it languish in corporate hands. Meanwhile the openness to optional transparent, customizable algorithms and preference for a smoother user experience of the ATProto/Bsky culture could make ActivityPub a more accessible, and livelier feeling space for more people.
Both can improve from one another, so long as both communities choose to try to learn from one another.
we can go further, somethingsomething StreetPass
If you skip the technobabble and politics about free (as in freedom), what’s left? If it’s just a platform that feels more complicated to sign up, because you have to learn about instances and it’s not clear which one you want, plus your friends aren’t there, plus it’s just 45k users total instead of a lot…?
The complication arises by making the mistake of pointing people to the backend, and the backends confusing matters by presenting themselves as platforms like existing corporate platforms. As noted, you reduce that by inviting them to join or browse your respective instance (or if you're self-hosting, to whichever open instance you think is amenable).
You're right though that some positive thing would help, and that's really down to whatever positive thing you found and want to share with others about these spaces. For me it's as simple as them being open and ad-free. I'm reminded of it every time I find myself trying to browse enclosures without having an account and they simply won't allow me to browse much before prompting me to sign up or subscribe to view more.
In a way that's kind of the irony of the fediverse, a major feature is that you don't have to sign up at all in many(most?) cases.
Aah I follow ya. As evident in my comment, I tend to pair absurdism with its related philosophy existentialism for something of a grounding effect, personally.
I disagree. Stoicism at its worst may lead to resignation. Absurdism encourages defying the meaninglessness of existence in large part by recognizing meaning is made.
In the face of a cold, uncaring existence, absurdism or existentialism are two great philosophies to employ to reimagine how we want to be in the world and how we want the world to be compared to stoicism, which would reach its limits with and within reason. Absurdism recognizes reason's limits and realizes one needs more than reason alone to persist.
Alongside others mentioned (tags/flairs, multi-communities, keyword filtering, etc.) another feature I'd like to see added/improved is notification settings.
Something like...
In account settings:
- Enable/disable all notifications.
- Enable/disable post reply notifications.
- Enable/disable comment reply notifications.
For others' posts/comments and per posts/comments:
- Enable/disable post reply notifications.
- Enable/disable comment reply notifications.
With those settings you could more easily tune out all notifications or only opt into those you'd like to see, and opt out of those you're done with (say your post/comment got popular and you've had your fill from the replies).
Unrelated to notification settings, it would also be nice to be able to block communities from the front page via the ... More menu in the default web UI.
To add to this, I think as long as decentralization involves having to know how to and have the money to operate a server, it's not going to reach the point some may hope for. The monetary costs may be lower than ever, but that doesn't address the knowledge requirements (not to mention time for setup and upkeep).
Even one of the more user friendly attempts at this so far (AT Protocol) doesn't address this in a meaningful way, as one still has to get into the weeds of server config, domain leasing, etc.
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is there a way to block posts by keyword, like I can block any post containing the word "musk"？
Yeah, keyword filtering isn't a default feature (yet) @Varyk@sh.itjust.works. I'm not sure which apps/frontends enable keyword filtering, but I think Voyager on mobile does, not sure which web frontends do.
I think it may also be worthwhile to toss in Bonfire, if looking for some pieces designed to hack together into a fediverse app. As I was looking up software the other day, I also saw some developing their software with Fedify, so there may be some resources to pull from there.
Tossing a mention to ya OP so you may catch this as well: @sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works
For people finding you, it means having to interact more in ways that encourage them to follow/subscribe to you, similar to how it goes now. For you finding stuff, it's also similar in that you'd want to follow/subscribe to those that introduce you to others to follow/subscribe to. It's really more for those that don't mind putting forth effort to have their own online social space, much like the setup involved in having any online space.
It shines when you want to host multiple users with multiple different domains and identities.
Emphasis added. It's that last part that drew me to include it. A single individual can prefer to portray themselves in multiple ways, particularly for different fediverse software (or even just different projects), so that's why I included it.
Going to guess it's one of the UrbanDictionary definitions, or in that vein...
Here I was thinking Ktistec was the most unfortunate, mainly as it's awkward to remember & write.
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RSS would be an interesting route but like, it would need a feed for every creator wouldn’t it? unless the social media platform allows it built-in like BSky does
If I understand ya right yeah, with BSky/Mastodon you pull the individual feeds for each account if you go that route (or maybe someone has an .opml file of several already grouped by topic to import). To me it's no worse than having to individually follow them on-platform, but I know I'm atypical in that respect
Once ya have'em it's all in one feed in your reader so not too different than the following feed
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What you describe is basically the flipside of what happened to RSS folks, so I know what you mean. It sucks to stop getting updates the way you're used to, and more hassle making the transitions to whatever the different method is.
It's basically the reason Twitter/X still has anyone there, except they have higher switching costs compared to an open following format.
Honestly I take the compromise approach where I can, which is social media that still generates RSS, like Bluesky/Mastodon/etc. and use that to avoid making additional accounts.
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Nah, I get that normal people wouldn't, but I can dream. It's so much better than making Yet Another Account. Plus I know in set up we're talkin' people pulling the feed into a reader, but also for content creators making sites, loads of sitebuilding software already has RSS baked in, so it's not even that big an ask from them.
If there's another more convenient no-sign-up method of keeping up with sites and stuff online, I'd love to know, 'cause I know many aren't about to use RSS.
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Hmm, if so, it wasn't clear in the documentation I read. I was of the impression it was still passing posts through the relay to enable others' discovery & interaction.
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But apparently what they actually meant was, “users of Mastodon instances rarely explore outward”? The instances would auto-federate, but in practice, the “crawlers” (the users) aren’t leaving their bubbles often enough to create a critical mass of interconnectedness across the Fediverse?
It's more along the lines of, as Mastodon's been one of the more popular ActivityPub platforms for awhile longer, there's a longer history of federation faffery, i.e. instance admins/people not getting along leading to defederations leading to a somewhat more fragmented network. Lemmy's only grown in adoption more recently and hasn't had as much time for that faffery to crop up as much, and has a different style and audience to it anyway, so it may be less prone to that, time will tell.
Regardless, your conclusion is basically on point for many folks. Federation stuff is no better to them than the erratic moderation/management of larger platforms that's driving them elsewhere. Of course problem is, moderation/management's not really something tech can solve (as Bsky's already run into with its attempts at enabling third-party moderation).
We use different terms, but that's what I'm referring to here: